I found both of these in the clearance section of DSW. At that point I was annoyed by shoe shopping and I was trying on stuff as quick as possible. Of course there was no place to sit and try on shoes in the clearance section so I'm rushing and hopping on one foot attempting to try on shoes. I almost took out an old lady looking for shoes with good support. I know this because she told her husband this after each pair he picked out. Fun times shoe shopping.